€500 winter rally car face off *Poll added*

"duurtlang" (duurtlang) 04/28/2015 at 09:55 • Filed to: carbagerun

0

34

Honda CRX Del Sol versus Citroën Xsara coupe. Which one will be the better pick for the Carbagerun, a week long winter rally for €500 cars through the Swiss Alps and the French/Spanish Pyrenees in February 2016? And why? ( repost due to initial post in the middle of the night)

My co-driver suggested the Del Sol. He’s a Honda fanboy, but he also likes my Peugeots (205 GTi and 406 coupe). I do like the car and the irony of picking a Del Sol for winter, but I have my doubts.

About the rally: time/speed is not a factor. It’s about finding the right check points, taking the right pictures and answering certain questions about things you encounter correctly. You’re only allowed to enroll cars built in 1998 and before, and they shouldn’t be worth more than €500. This €500 limit is a bit flexible to keep it workable, but it should certainly be <€1k.

1992-1998 Honda CRX Del Sol

+ Looks
+ Ironic name
++ Honda reliability
+ Targa
- Availability
- Rust
- Price/quality. Shitty cars for high prices
- Tuner scene (from lowering, which isn’t helpful in snow, to downright molestation)
- No rally heritage
- Space. No backseat.
- Targa during winter

1997-2005 (so 1997-1998 to meet the rules) Citroën Xsara

+ Availability
+ Rally heritage. Lots of WRC victories.
+ Space. It’s a normal compact hatchback really.
+ Price/quality. Decent ones are still cheap.
+ No rust problems
+ Parts availability. I can even use my 205 GTi 1.9 Speedline wheels
+ Decent reliability
+ Could take a third person
+ A more rational choice
- Slightly dumpy image
- Frequently treated as a disposable car for years
- A more rational choice

Why not a <1992 CRX? Ones that are decent enough and road legal are way too expensive. And for the record: the Citroën Xsara does not have hydropneumatic suspension. Zero green spheres under the hood. It can be had as a 5-door hatch and as a wagon as well, but I prefer the ‘coupe’/3-door hatch.

From my list I think it’s clear where my bias is. Am I wrong? Are we both wrong and should we not consider either? Whichever car we choose, it will get snow tires (mandatory) and 4 snow chains in the trunk.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

KatzManDu > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 04:23

0

I vote “Del Sol” only because it would be epic. Good snow tires and you’re good to go. I’m sure you can find a way to adjust the suspension up 1-2cm with some home-made bushings or something for better ground clearance.

Also, how did I not know about this? I need to shop this around as an idea for some co-workers and I to have a blast at the beginning of next year.

duurtlang > KatzManDu 04/27/2015 at 04:28

0

Well, registration for this specific rally has been closed. That doesn’t mean you can’t create one of your own, downside (or upside, depending on your opinion) is that there aren’t 200-300 teams and that you have to arrange everything yourself.

KnowsAboutCars > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 04:28

1

I’d go with Del Sol. Rust isn’t probably a big issue as you aren’t going to own it for a long time (unless you have to get it through road worthiness inspection). Civic springs should fit in Del Sol so if it has been lowered too much you can find some dirt cheap springs from junkyard easily. Targa in winter, well... it’s an experience. It could be uncomfortably small for taller people to sit in for long time though.

BATC42 > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 04:32

0

I vote Xsara. I may be biased though since I own one.

But as you said, parts availability is a big plus. It just shares its parts with most what Peugeot and Citroën made in the 90’s, so if you break down you’ll be able to repair.

duurtlang > KnowsAboutCars 04/27/2015 at 04:33

0

Good point. I’m hitting the roof in many cars already, with my 188 cm (6’2”) and long torso/short legs. I’ll have to try one to find out.

Cars will have to be road worthy with a valid inspection. My co-driver is German, I’m Dutch, so we can choose between German or Dutch registered cars. Both countries have significant road worthiness inspections.

duurtlang > BATC42 04/27/2015 at 04:37

0

Exactly. Hondas are so much more rare, everywhere in Europe but especially in my native the Netherlands (during preparation) and around France (during the rally).

Have you had many problems with your Xsara? I know it’s mostly a 306 underneath, and considering the amazing quality of my 406 I trust them indefinitely as long as the previous owners took care of them.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 04:44

0

We had Xsara for a good few years, never broke once. Decent little cars, so I vote for that.

BATC42 > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 04:47

0

Mine is a newer model. A 2001 VTS with the 2l HDI 110. No mechanical problems at all. The only thing I had to change were the front control arms, because the bushing were completely stuck inside and we couldn’t get them out without damaging the rest. Put 2 second-hand one on it.

Other than that, it has mostly been trouble free. Just a couple electronic shenanigans with the ventilations system (had to change the control plate behind the buttons in the dash, was constantly running at full speed when on a setting different than 0).

I don’t know about the regular ones, I don’t think they have the passive rear wheel steering the 306 has. I think just the VTS comes with it. And if it broke it’s hella expensive to replace.

If you get one of the earlier model you should have no problems with the engine as mid 90’s Peugeot engines (before the HDi) were quite old at the time, and had been definitely proven. The XUD9 we had in my parents 405 was bulletproof. The only problem we had revolving around the engine, was one the engine mounts that broke. We sold the car in 2005 with 250,000 km and last time I saw it driving was back in 2012 and it was still going strong.

Dunnik > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 04:50

0

I think the car with the rally experience is the car to take. Even though it’s not a race, in theory it should perform better, yes?

And btw, this rally sounds awesome.

djmt1 > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 05:28

0

Del Sol because it sounds like somewhere sunny which will be comforting if you ever get stuck in the snow.

505 - morphine not found > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 05:30

0

I would vote Xsara, it’s a good choice for such a venture. Even if you don’t take a third person, usable space behind the seats is a must, as you’re not going to pack away all the snacks, camera equipment and laptop into the trunk every time you stop/start at a waypoint. Not to mention your warm clothing, which will also go to the rear seats while you’re in the warm cabin...

Just make sure to add ridiculous wing to the back, and white wheels for the complete XRC looks :-)

Then again, if we’re talking about €500 cars to take to a winter event, why not get something AWD?

They’re available from as low as €150 , and a good 2.0i with low-range gearbox will get you out from every situation. I know, because a friend used one just like that for our winter snow-drift adventures, and he was the designated pull-you-out guy too, because these get ridiculous grip with a good snow tire.

pip bip - choose Corrour > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 05:32

0

Citroen , more likely to breakdown and provide sense of adventure.

Bluecold > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 05:34

0

why buy a lowly citroen xsara when you can buy a high-mileage Citroen XM for less?

Also, flagship citroens have something resembling a rally history.

duurtlang > 505 - morphine not found 04/27/2015 at 05:38

0

The last time I participated, in 2013, the car below was the one I participated in. Considering all the RWD vehicles that did fine I’m not willing to limit myself to the tiny supply of acceptable AWD vehicles. Subarus are such rare cars here. The one you posted has a broken rear differential and considering the pictures, possibly, life ending rust. Too big a gamble for that specific car. It will have to be street legal with a valid inspection. I’m not ruling them out though, I just like to pick something that isn’t the most rational thing out there.

duurtlang > Bluecold 04/27/2015 at 05:40

0

I agree. Or the Xantia Activa that’s on German Ebay at the moment. I am participating with someone else though, and I doubt I can convince him.

duurtlang > pip bip - choose Corrour 04/27/2015 at 05:43

1

Well, among those that know them these are known for their durability. Just see the replies I got right here from former and current owners. I’d pick something German and formerly expensive if I were to get my sense of adventure out of the likeliness of a breakdown.

505 - morphine not found > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 06:03

0

OK, i see your point. As I said, the Xsara is a good choice for me.

Another idea could be the Nedcar-made Volvo S40/V40 Are those available in this price bracket? Because if yes, those seats are very comfortable. Bland car though...

Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 06:47

0

Take the Citroen, save the Del Sol for someone that wants to save it. They are getting more and more rare. Take the Citroen and paint it rally livery.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > duurtlang 04/27/2015 at 07:26

0

As someone who owned a Del Sol, the front end is basically just a civic, so parts should be easier. The trunk is way bigger than you’d expect, and the back window rolls down. That last bit sounds like it should be a non-issue, but trust me, you want that. The rear window always stayed down when I owned mine. That being said, in a Xsara, you can pretend to be S. Loeb.

MultiplaOrgasms > BATC42 04/27/2015 at 08:11

1

XUD9 ftw.

KirkyV > BATC42 04/27/2015 at 16:03

0

I hadn’t heard that the 306 passive rear-wheel-steer was pricey to fix—I thought it was mainly just a matter of swapping out worn bushings? (I’m thinking of buying a 306 to replace my 106, so this topic is of keen interest to me.)

BATC42 > KirkyV 04/27/2015 at 17:20

0

It’s not a problem of the passive steering axle (that all Xsaras have, I stand corrected), but rather the problem of the rear axle on all Xsaras and 306s. Don’t know if it affects all gens but it’s kind of a matter of “when is it gonna fail”, especially on high mileage car. You know you have a problem when you start to get positive camber on the rear wheels.

KirkyV > BATC42 04/27/2015 at 17:23

0

Oh, yeah, I know what you’re talking about. I think it’s basically just that the rear torsion bar will eventually wear to the point that it needs a rebuild.

I was just worried that there was some additional complication with the steering system to keep an eye on!

MultiplaOrgasms > BATC42 04/27/2015 at 17:25

0

I probably mentioned it a million times before, but I just have to mention that me dad put 540.000km on his XUD Xantia.

BATC42 > MultiplaOrgasms 04/27/2015 at 18:10

0

My god father had a BX, red one, with an XU too (can’t remember if this thing was diesel or petrol). When he sold it back in early 2000, this thing had close to 600k on the clock. And was strong to go for a few 100k more (it hadn’t a single spot of rust, despite being daily driven near the swiss border...). The guy who bought it crashed it a week later.

(My god father then upgraded to another BX then went on to own a couple Xantia)

MultiplaOrgasms > BATC42 04/27/2015 at 18:18

1

#frenchreliability

thebigbossyboss > duurtlang 04/28/2015 at 08:27

0

Yeah I learned about German inspections from top gear I think.

I am voting Citroen, just seems like the better deal for what you are doing.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > duurtlang 04/28/2015 at 09:42

0

If you choose the Del Sol you are obligated to run the rally with the targa top off. If you don’t agree to those conditions I will travel to Europe, find the car and hide the top on you before the start of the rally. Or perhaps chuck it down a ravine in honor of JC.

Based on practicality I would say Xsara. It just seems that it would be much more comfortable to spend a week in.

duurtlang > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 04/28/2015 at 09:45

0

I joked to my, German, co-driver we should wear Pickelhaube helmets with the roof open. The pointy parts would stick out above the car as we’re both not exactly short.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > duurtlang 04/28/2015 at 10:55

1

You make an eloquent argument for the Del Sol.

Schaefft > duurtlang 04/28/2015 at 21:14

0

Would love to do something like that myself. Buy a cheap car and just do some fun driving. I thought about doing the Mongolia rally but I doubt I’ll find the people (or holidays) to do anything like this anytime soon.

duurtlang > Schaefft 04/29/2015 at 05:18

0

Mongolia is far, far more challenging (and expensive and time consuming) than what I’m going to do here though. I do get a lot of these reactions. Maybe we should arrange a Jalopnik rally? The major problem there is distance, as we’re all over the place.

Schaefft > duurtlang 04/29/2015 at 06:21

0

Yeah, it would be more challenging but at the same time a great adventure.

I would love to form a Jalopnik rally team! The only problem we might have is agreeing on a car though.

duurtlang > Schaefft 04/29/2015 at 06:30

0

A Jalopnik rally team? Why not more than one? I’ve actually just written a little article for Oppo for this exact thing. It’s not up yet, it’s scheduled for for later today when the Americans are awake as well. I’m going to suggest an OppoRally. This link doesn’t work now just yet, it might work later today (16:15 German time, roughly).